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   Flagged for moral character...how long for decisio
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   Author  Topic: Flagged for moral character...how long for decisio  (Read 5789 times)
John Simmons
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Re: Flagged for moral character...how long for dec
« Reply #20 on: May 16th, 2006, 4:53pm »
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Traffic violations indicate a lack of respect for the law?  So basically if you have a radar detector or are simply lucky and manage to avoid getting tickets then you are undoubtedly a moral person.  No paper trail = moral, of course
 
For all the naive on this board, and anyone who simply wants to learn more about the character and fitness process, check out:  Deborah L. Rhode, Moral Character as a Professional Credential, 94 Yale L.J. 491, 493 (1985).
 
On a side note, my sister got denied on character and fitness grounds by a state bar for a DUI - 8 years ago.  Obviously, it seems as if some quota had to be filled and her straw was drawn.  Yes, she had all of the credentials:  1) law review; 2) top 50; 3) outgoing.   She was cleared a year later and all is well at present.
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Isaac
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Re: Flagged for moral character...how long for dec
« Reply #21 on: May 16th, 2006, 5:52pm »
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on May 16th, 2006, 4:53pm, John Simmons wrote:
Traffic violations indicate a lack of respect for the law?  So basically if you have a radar detector or are simply lucky and manage to avoid getting tickets then you are undoubtedly a moral person.  No paper trail = moral, of course

 
I don't think it's a stretch to infer from a pattern of law breaking that a person might not have respect for the law.
 
And of course the inverse of a true statement is not necessarily true, so the fact that the inverted statement is obviously ridiculous means little.
 
I assume you are just poking some fun.
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Isaac
patento
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Re: Flagged for moral character...how long for dec
« Reply #22 on: May 17th, 2006, 3:12pm »
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How about sneezing repeatedly in public? breach of peace, isn't it?
 
I know people who are very very good drivers but they are proud owner of 3-4 traffic tickets. I also know many people very close to me who are not so good drivers (in fact, I refuse to let any of my family member take a ride in their vehicles) but they have never got any tickets. Getting traffic ticket is simply a matter of coincident. Almost everybody makes mistake but only those who make mistake in the presence of a cop get tickets.  This has nothing to do with "respect for law" crap.
 
Further, people are not aware of many completely sutpid rules such as switch on the headlights when the wipers are moving (doesn't matter if it is completely sunny day). Does violation of this rule come down to the the matter of moral turpitude? How stupid one has to be to argue that a traffic ticket comes down to that level?
 
If you are a lawyer, you know that charges of "disrespect for law" require mental state. If you drove at 37mph in a 35mph zone without requisite intent to exceed the speed limit and got a ticket, this really isn't "disrespect for law" no matter how you try to argue.
 
Also, a lawyer can advice his clients to violate the law if he believe in good faith that the law is crapy. Isn't this a disrespect for law?  
 
Just because OED made a rule doesn't mean it is a good rule. I rest my case.
 
 
 
 
 
 
on May 16th, 2006, 5:52pm, Isaac wrote:

 
I don't think it's a stretch to infer from a pattern of law breaking that a person might not have respect for the law.
 
And of course the inverse of a true statement is not necessarily true, so the fact that the inverted statement is obviously ridiculous means little.
 
I assume you are just poking some fun.

« Last Edit: May 17th, 2006, 3:23pm by patento » IP Logged
wallflower
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Re: Flagged for moral character...how long for dec
« Reply #23 on: May 17th, 2006, 4:24pm »
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on May 17th, 2006, 3:12pm, patento wrote:
If you are a lawyer, you know that charges of "disrespect for law" require mental state. If you drove at 37mph in a 35mph zone without requisite intent to exceed the speed limit and got a ticket, this really isn't "disrespect for law" no matter how you try to argue.

 
What's a charge of disrespect for law?  Where do you get that it requires intent?
 
Also where has sneezing been considered a breach of peace?
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Isaac
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Re: Flagged for moral character...how long for dec
« Reply #24 on: May 17th, 2006, 4:29pm »
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on May 17th, 2006, 3:12pm, patento wrote:
How about sneezing repeatedly in public? breach of peace, isn't it?
 
I know people who are very very good drivers but they are proud owner of 3-4 traffic tickets. I also know many people very close to me who are not so good drivers (in fact, I refuse to let any of my family member take a ride in their vehicles) but they have never got any tickets. Getting traffic ticket is simply a matter of coincident. Almost everybody makes mistake but only those who make mistake in the presence of a cop get tickets.  This has nothing to do with "respect for law" crap.
 
 
Further, people are not aware of many completely sutpid rules such as switch on the headlights when the wipers are moving (doesn't matter if it is completely sunny day). Does violation of this rule come down to the the matter of moral turpitude? How stupid one has to be to argue that a traffic ticket comes down to that level?

 
 
For all of the reasons you give, there is no per se rule that if you get speeding tickets or have other types of traffic violations that you will not be registered as a patent practitioner.    That said, I stand by my statement that a patern of infractions is evidence of disrespect to the extent where the ball might be kicked back into your court to provide evidence of respect for the law.
 
Your moral turpitude argument is a red herring.   Seemingly we both agree that speeding is not a moral turpitude issue.
 
 
Quote:

If you are a lawyer, you know that charges of "disrespect for law" require mental state. If you drove at 37mph in a 35mph zone without requisite intent to exceed the speed limit and got a ticket, this really isn't "disrespect for law" no matter how you try to argue.

 
Conviction for speeding does not require a mental state.  I'll agree with you to that extent.   Almost certainly 37 in a 35mph won't get you a 100 dollar ticket.
 
As for the PTO having a bad rule, I don't know what rule you are talking about.  The PTO asks for relevant information and evaluates it.  They don't routinely deny people registration for a few speeding tickets or DUIs, and they don't have any per se rule setting a five tickets limit.   Further, they don't ask for any information that any state bar does not also request when doing a character and fitness review.
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Isaac
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