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(Message started by: Whitemouse on Apr 7th, 2007, 7:52am)

Title: Contest a Patent
Post by Whitemouse on Apr 7th, 2007, 7:52am
I have a virtual prototype in the works.

I sent a nondisclosure and a drawing of my invention to a patent and marketing group. "By Fax."

I paid for the patent search and it came back with all clear and ready to go.

I paid for the provisional patent and for the virtual prototype.

According to them, they won't pay my application fee to the patent office until the virtual website is complete. (( 4 to 8 weeks. )) Because of the 12 month clock they want all possible time to find an interested party.

I don't have a problem with their approach, let's just say I am paranoid:}

(1.) My question   is...........

Let's say while I am waiting for the marketing company to complete the  prototype that somehow someone comes up with the same or similar idea and files the patent application right away, yet my faxes and emails and patent search prove that I was involved with this idea /invention prior to their filing date.  

Do I have any legal recourse to prove I am the true inventor or will I lose all my money and my invention.

Thank you very much.

Title: Re: Contest a Patent
Post by JSonnabend on Apr 7th, 2007, 5:07pm
You should be paranoid.  Unless the "patent and marketing group" is a law firm, you're dealing with shady characters who are, in all likelihood, selling you a bill of goods.

For example: (1) there is no such thing as a "provisional patent", and (2) no competent search comes back "all clear" . . . ever.

Do yourself a favor.  Cut your losses and find yourself a qualified patent attorney.

- Jeff

Title: Re: Contest a Patent
Post by Whitemouse on Apr 7th, 2007, 7:33pm
uspto "DOT" gov/web/patents/types.htm

The above link from the United States Patent Office explains what a provisional patent is and I am working with a law firm / marketing group which has been in business for 8 years. I had them checked out completely prior to sending them any of my hard earned money..

It seems you sir are not informed enough / educated or slightly qualified to be giving advice on this forum.

Provisional patent is a place holder for 12 months which  gives you 12 months to file your non provisional patent = Utility Patent.  

Perhaps I should have stated to you that they are waiting to file the provisional application.

Title: Re: Contest a Patent
Post by biopico on Apr 7th, 2007, 8:18pm

on 04/07/07 at 07:52:30, Whitemouse wrote:
Do I have any legal recourse to prove I am the true inventor or will I lose all my money and my invention.


Well, all of your documents (dated and signed) can serve as evidence of your conception for your invention.  The date of conception is very important to determine priority.  

Title: Re: Contest a Patent
Post by JSonnabend on Apr 7th, 2007, 8:38pm
I'm sorry, where on the cited USPTO webpage does it mention provisional patents?  Oh, right, it doesn't.  An application is not a patent, and a provisional application never will be.  

Did this patent/marketing "firm" explain section 112 to you?  Will the provisional disclosure support your eventual formal application claims?

Ok, minor details like section 112 aside, the firm is waiting to file a provisional.  Why, exactly, is that?  To prepare a "virtual prototype"?  To launch a "virtual website"?  Great.  Care to explain how either of these relates to the application?  For that matter, care to explain what the heck either of those thing are?

I've only been doing this for 15 or so years.  I represented Fortune 500 companies for years while at the big NYC firms, and now I do the same for the "little guy" in my private practice.  But that's neither here nor there.  You clearly did your homework and picked the right "firm".  You, sir, know what you're talking about.

Feel free to contact me when you realize the mess these guys have gotten you into.  Perhaps it won't be too late to salvage something, but I'm not betting on it.

And Biopico, since you chimed in, care to explain how his "date of conception" matters in the slightest if he's got a deficient spec or blows his 102(b) date while waiting for a "virtual" something-or-other?  Heck, if he files a properly drafted provisional now, wouldn't that give him conception and constructive R to P (and isn't that better)?

- Jeff

Title: Re: Contest a Patent
Post by Whitemouse on Apr 7th, 2007, 9:09pm
You sure seem to have a very negative attitude.  They explained everything to me.  I know a provisional patent application will never turn into a patent, but it does give you the patent pending rights for 12 months.

For someone who has been doing this for 15 years it appears you don't read and comprehend to well.

Title: Re: Contest a Patent
Post by Whitemouse on Apr 7th, 2007, 9:10pm

on 04/07/07 at 20:18:39, biopico wrote:
Well, all of your documents (dated and signed) can serve as evidence of your conception for your invention.  The date of conception is very important to determine priority.  


Thank you.

Title: Re: Contest a Patent
Post by JSonnabend on Apr 8th, 2007, 6:23am
"Patent pending rights"?  Ok, you clearly know more about this than I do, because I've never heard of such a thing.

One final question (not that you've answered any of the previous ones): if this firm is so well qualified, why are you asking questions of strangers here and not asking your "attorney"?

Good luck in your pursuits.

- Jeff

Title: Re: Contest a Patent
Post by Whitemouse on Apr 8th, 2007, 9:10am

on 04/08/07 at 06:23:29, JSonnabend wrote:
"Patent pending rights"?  Ok, you clearly know more about this than I do, because I've never heard of such a thing.

One final question (not that you've answered any of the previous ones): if this firm is so well qualified, why are you asking questions of strangers here and not asking your "attorney"?

Good luck in your pursuits.

- Jeff




As I stated before, I have only gone as far as doing the patent search and am waiting for the prototype to be finished. A website for a virtual prototype.

Please tell me that you are joking about Patent pending?

I came here to ask my question since it is a forum.

I had no idea my question was going to be so difficult to answer.

I could have sent the patent office a disclosure as a proof of evidence of date of conception or I could have used a scientific numbered note book with NOTARIZED and witnessed pages.  I could have sent myself a registered letter and never opened it until I was standing in front of a judge, however, I did not wish to do that.

In my opinion I feel the fax and hard copy mail and email which all have dates should be of equal evidence and that is all I am asking, your opinion of me being ripped off by the marketing firm is not relevant, if they do then I will take action against them.

Thanks

Title: Re: Contest a Patent
Post by Wiscagent on Apr 8th, 2007, 9:21am
"I paid for the provisional patent ... they won't pay my application fee to the patent office until ..."

They wonít pay your application fee right now (for whatever reason), suggesting that they have written and have a ready-to-file patent application.  Have you read and reviewed the patent application?  Jeff Sonnabend offered his services, perhaps you should have him take a look at the application.  If you havenít been provided with a copy of the application, I suggest that you request one.

Title: Re: Contest a Patent
Post by Whitemouse on Apr 8th, 2007, 9:40am

on 04/08/07 at 09:21:54, Wiscagent wrote:
"I paid for the provisional patent ... they won't pay my application fee to the patent office until ..."

They wonít pay your application fee right now (for whatever reason), suggesting that they have written and have a ready-to-file patent application.  Have you read and reviewed the patent application?  Jeff Sonnabend offered his services, perhaps you should have him take a look at the application.  If you havenít been provided with a copy of the application, I suggest that you request one.



I appreciate that Jeff offered his service, however, I have already paid for the following.

Patent search = paid and concluded.

provisional patent = provisional application is being reviewed and mailed to me for my signature and will not be filed to the patent office until the virtual prototype is complete.  " The reason being is they want everything done 100% prior to filing the application,  there is a 12 month limit before I have to file the non provisional patent."

Since the company will be searching for a manufacturer to license my invention they want all available time to do so and since it can take 4 to 8 weeks to finish the website and it could take the patent attorney up to 3 to 4months to write the utility application, this doesn't leave much time to find a manufacturer.  

Since I have already paid for everything upfront, I don't have the money to hire Jeff.  I am just hoping everything works out, this company has been in business for 8 years with no complaints every filed against them so I feel 90% comfortable, I just don't like waiting to file my application as thousands of applications are filed daily I just fear someone might beat me to patent office and I can't afford to lose all that money as I got a low paying job and that money took me years to save.

Thank you for your input / advice.
K.B.

Title: Re: Contest a Patent
Post by JSonnabend on Apr 8th, 2007, 3:38pm
Richard -

I appreciate your efforts here with Whitemouse.  I'll never understand why some people come here looking for advice, receive it gratis from fully qualified  professionals, and then argue when they don't like what they hear.  

I've given up with this guy.  This "firm" he's hired is so clearly blowing smoke up his skirt that it pains me, but he's refused to listen.

Let him have his "provisional patent", his "patent pending rights", and his filing delay.  Forget about constructive reduction to practice.  Forget about proper 112 support.  He'll have a "virtual prototype", a "virtual website", empty pockets and absolutely nothing of value.

- Jeff

Title: Re: Contest a Patent
Post by Whitemouse on Apr 8th, 2007, 4:33pm
It may end up the way you say, however, that's my problem and not yours.

You have offered nothing but negative attitude, this forum is a joke and you have such a poor attitude that I am surprised anyone would hire you at all.

Title: Re: Contest a Patent
Post by JimIvey on Apr 9th, 2007, 6:57pm
Well, I'll jump in late in the game, but hopefully to add some credence to what's been posted already.  And, I hope I don't portray any "attitude" -- none is intended.

There's no such thing as a "provisional patent" -- only a provisional application.  The distinction is crucial -- an application gives one absolutely no rights to exclude others from making, using, selling, or importing an invention.  Only an issued patent does that.  If that's what you mean by "protected", you are absolutely not protected by a provisional application.

A provisional application does not give you 12 months to shop your idea around.  Other aspects of US patent law do.

A provisional application does allow you to postpone filing of a real patent application by up to 12 months -- but only if the provisional application describes your invention at least as fully as a non-provisional application would.  There is absolutely no relaxed standard of sufficiency for provisional applications relative to real applications.  So, unless your provisional application meets the legal standard for a real application, it doesn't even buy you the 12 months.  And, you usually won't know it's not good enough until it's too late to do anything about it.

Provisional applications were created as a patch for a weird quirk of US patent law vis-a-vis foreign applicants.  It was never intended to be a place for people to just dump garbage on paper in hope of preserving some patent rights down the road.  However, that's exactly how most people use provisional patents.  And, they're no good for that purpose.

I'd also offer a word of caution re a search that comes back "all clear."  The world of prior art is so vast that no mere mortal can effectively search all of it.  So, there's always a risk of invalidating prior art out there.  You generally search until you don't think it's worth spending more money to further reduce your risk.  The residual risk left after a search follows a curve of dimishing returns.  At some point, the incremental assurance you get just isn't worth the incremental price.  Then you stop searching.  

The question is for you is "where did the marketing group draw that line for you?"  Did they do the bare minimum search (usually costs a few hundred dollars)?  The bare minimum search just tests whether a quick glance at the published literature could save you thousands of dollars if something pops up immediately.  Did they do a typically rigorous search (usually costs $1,000-2,000)?  That's a more thorough search before investing too much money on a venture (more than just a patent application).  If you're going to invest 5 or 6 figures, a few thousand on a fairly thorough search might make sense.

But, most importantly, you should understand that there is no such thing as a perfectly complete search such that your risk is entirely negated -- suggested by the "all clear".

Regards.

Title: Re: Contest a Patent
Post by buster on May 11th, 2007, 2:55pm
you were right, I got ripped off! and now they sold my invention

Title: Re: Contest a Patent
Post by Whitemouse on May 11th, 2007, 3:34pm
You were right!

Please do not use Inventionhomedotcom


I contacted Jacob Enterprise A.K.A. inventionhomedot com
I paid for a patent search a virtual prototype and I paid to have my idea patented. I sent them a drawing and a non disclosure that I downloaded from their site. What did I get = after about 3 months of not patenting my invention, I found that a client of theirs known as Proctor and Gamble know has a new faucet mounted filtered water purifier just like my idea a as a new future product to their site.

Jacob Enterprise has stolen my multi million dollar idea and made a deal with proctor and Gamble. As you can see the website: purflavoroptionsdotcom/?src=pgdotcom is new  this matter.

I am currently seeking legal action against this invention company.

Title: Re: Contest a Patent
Post by Wiscagent on May 12th, 2007, 8:32am
Procter & Gamble has an extensive patent portfolio related to water filtration and purification.  P&G owns the "PUR" line of water purification products.  It may be worth your while to review their patents.  It is possible that P&G independently developed the same invention as you.  If that is the situation, you may wish to reconsider legal action on this matter.

Note: I have no connection with either P&G or Jacob Enterprise.

Title: Re: Contest a Patent
Post by JSonnabend on May 14th, 2007, 8:19am

on 05/11/07 at 15:34:04, Whitemouse wrote:
You were right!

. . .

Jacob Enterprise has stolen my multi million dollar idea and made a deal with proctor and Gamble. As you can see the website: purflavoroptionsdotcom/?src=pgdotcom is new  this matter.

I am currently seeking legal action against this invention company.


Reviewing your earlier comments:


Quote:
It seems you sir are not informed enough / educated or slightly qualified to be giving advice on this forum.



Quote:
For someone who has been doing this for 15 years it appears you don't read and comprehend to well.



Quote:
You have offered nothing but negative attitude, this forum is a joke and you have such a poor attitude that I am surprised anyone would hire you at all.

you'll forgive me if I don't shed a tear for you.

- Jeff

Title: Re: Contest a Patent
Post by Rajeev_Madnawat on May 28th, 2007, 7:36pm
Invention Submission Corporation versus Jon Dudas, USPTO Director
In January 2002, the PTO initiated an advertising campaign to warn the public of invention promotion scams. In a press release describing the campaign, the PTO noted that the agency's advertisements would feature "an actual inventor, Edward Lewis, who lost several thousand dollars." In the advertisements, Lewis described how he had spent $13,000 dollars on the services of an invention promotion company but "ha[d]n't seen a penny." The advertisements did not accuse any particular promotion company of engaging in scams, nor did they identify the company to which Lewis referred.

A news organization then published a story on the Invention Submission Corporation, noting that Lewis had filed a complaint against ISC and how the FTC had investigated the ISC for "misrepresentation in patent marking schemes."

The Invention Submission Corporation then sued the PTO under the Administrative Procedure Act (APA) alleging that the PTO's advertisements exceeded its statutory authority and were done in order to penalize ISC.

Both the district court and 4th Circuit Court of Appeals dismissed ISC's claims, noting that the PTO's ad campaign was not a "final decision" as required for jurisdiction under the APA.

Now, ISC has petitioned the Supreme Court of the United States for a hearing on the case.  ISC argues that the the PTO's actions constitute a sanction against the company, and is therefore reviewable under the APA.

The government brief in opposition to the petition is available here. The briefs have been distributed for conference scheduled for October 29.



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